Category Archives: New Alresford

**CANCELLED** Guild Education Course – Beyond Plain Bob Doubles and Minor – Saturday 25th April: New Alresford area

Sadly this training event has had to be cancelled.

The Guild Education Committee is putting on a course to help people progress beyond Plain Bob. We will use a series of intermediate methods to teach you essential method ringing skills, which will make learning more advanced methods much easier, and also help you keep right in them and ring them well!

The doubles group(s) will explore methods such as Reverse Canterbury, before moving on to St Simon’s and St Martin’s. We will also explore the world of ‘variations’, where different calls are used in a base method to add variety and interest to your doubles ringing.

The minor group(s) will explore Little Bob, St Clement’s, Single Oxford and Double Oxford. We will also show how these methods can easily be spliced together with Plain Bob.

The minimum requirements are that you can ring touches of Plain Bob inside confidently.

These methods are all on the Ringing World 2020 Blue Pathway. This is a challenge for ringers and bands to extend their method ringing repertoire. Anyone can log on to Bellboard and subscribe to a pathway.

We may not be able to teach you to ring all of the methods in your group in one day, but you will get a good start. Afterwards we intend to follow up students in each District with further opportunities to practice these methods and perhaps score quarter peals in them.

Please apply in good time to secure your place. There is an electronic version of the application form at

Closing date for receipt of applications: Friday 3rd April.

Download an Application Form

Download Poster – Beyond Plain Bob Doubles & Minor

Notes for Students and Tower Captains





Delivering Learning the Ropes – New Alresford, Saturday 7th March 2020

We are holding a course at New Alresford on Saturday 7th March to help people learn how to deliver the Learning the Ropes scheme. This M2F course focuses of the stages from ringing rounds to plain hunting the treble to methods.

Learning the Ropes breaks the learning process down in to easily manageable steps, getting the basic skills right first, so that learners find it easier to make the transition into method ringing. The course introduces a series of exercises that even an inexperienced band can use. These exercises add variety, and are fun to ring as well! The only requirement is that you can plain hunt competently to methods yourself. However much of the course is spent in practical sessions and if you are learning the plain hunt yourself, we can also fit in a few ‘real learners’ for our trainee teachers to practice their teaching on. Even if you are an experienced teacher, you will find something new, and we need experienced teachers to help ‘mentor’ and guide the less experienced teachers afterwards.

Since its inception eight years ago, the Association of Ringing Teachers (ART) has grown rapidly. Across the UK and overseas more than 3,300 teachers have attended one of the ART Teacher Training Scheme modules. The Learning the Ropes scheme has many benefits including:

  • A series of attractive publications aimed at new ringers.
  • A dedicated website for new ringers where they can access further learning material and videos.
  • A quarterly e-mail newsletter ‘Tower Talk’ aimed at new ringers, with further advice and articles.
  • An annual Learning the Ropes festival, masterclasses and an awards scheme.
  • ‘Facebook’ group where new ringers can share their experiences, and find they are not alone.
  • There are five levels to Learning the Ropes, from bell handling, to ringing Plain Bob and Grandsire inside to quarter peal standard. New ringers are able to follow a clear pathway, all the way through.

To find out more and book a place visit:

Members of the Winchester & Portsmouth Guild may reclaim ART course fees up to £20 from the Guild’s Training and Development Fund (subject to availability of funds).  Applications should be made to the Guild Treasurer via the Guild’s website,

If you want to come as an ‘Observer’ to find out more about the scheme or as a ‘real learner’, you can do this for free, but please do not book a place using the booking system. Send an e-mail to  Roger Booth instead.

Download flyer here

New Alresford Band reaps a First for Tichborne Harvest

After ringing for morning service today at New Alresford, six members of our band went to ring for the harvest festival service at our neighbouring parish of Tichborne. These bells have no band of their own, but members of the congregation were very appreciative and thanked us for our efforts. The Rector said it meant a lot to the village to hear their bells being rung, even to those who did not manage to come to the service. It was also Nathan Smith’s first quarter, rung as part of the Guild’s ‘Firsts Fortnight’.

Roger Booth

Derek Yates – Sad News

Derek Yates from New Alresford sadly passed away on Friday 20th September at the age of 80, after a long battle with cancer.  He was a long-standing member of the Guild, having previously rung at Binsted, in the Alton & Petersfield District.

A Service of Remembrance for Derek will be held at St John the Baptist, New Alresford on Thursday 3rd October at 2pm.

Andrew Glover

W&P Guild Webmaster

New/Old Alresford – Christmas Ringing Times

Our Christmas Ringing Times are…:

Sunday 23rd – Carol Service – St Mary’s 4.15 – 5.00pm

Sunday 23rd – Carol Service – St John’s 5.15 – 6.00pm

Christmas Day – St John’s 8.50 – 9.30am

Friday 28th – Normal practice – St John’s 7.30 – 9.00pm

Sundays 23rd & 30th – Normal Service ringing – St John’s 8.50 – 9.30am

ART Module 1 – New Alresford – Sat 26th January 2019 – 9.30am-5.00pm

The Ringing Remembers campaign has resulted in many people coming forward to learn to ring, but with the current profile of the ringing population, we need to continuously recruit and train more new ringers. Many people end up teaching because there is no-one else in their tower prepared to do it, and they have little or no training or support. Founded seven years ago to address this issue, the Association of Ringing Teachers (ART) has grown rapidly. More than 2,600 people have now attended one of the ART Teacher Training Scheme modules.

Working with the Guild Education Committee, there will be an ART Module 1 day course (teaching bell handling) at St John, New Alresford on Saturday 26th January 2019 – 9.30 till 5.00pm.

This module is designed to help teachers deliver the Learning the Ropes scheme to new ringers, and is open to people who have sufficiently good bell control to inspire confidence in others, whether they have taught someone to handle before, or not. To book a place visit:

Further details are on the attached flyer for your tower notice board.

ART Flyer New Alresford – 26th January 2019

Report on commemorate ring that took place on 21 October 2018 for the Winchester District bell ringers who died in the Great War

As part of Ringing Remembers, eight Winchester District bell ringers rang a peal of 1918 changes of Bob Triples at St John the Baptist church, New Alresford on Sunday 21 October 2018. This ring was organised to commemorate the twelve bell ringers who died in the Winchester District in the Great War and were a loss to the community. The ringers together represented the towers who had lost a ringer.

The bell ringers were:

Roy Lemarachel rang for St Mary’s,  Bishopstoke and was the conductor

Rodney Skinner rang for St Nicholas, Bishops Sutton

John Croft as chairman of Winchester District rang for St Michael and All Angels, Cheriton

Elizabeth Johnson rang for St John the Baptist, New Alresford

Ann Lemarachel* rang for St Stephen’s, Sparsholt

Colin Cook rang for Winchester Cathedral

John Colliss rang for Winchester Cathedral

Gerry Cornick rang for Holy Trinity, Wonston

*Jenny Watson was due to ring but was unwell so Ann LeMarechal kindly took her place.

Short video clip here

Ringers of Winchester District who were killed in the Great War

Bishopstoke, St Mary

  • Battery Sergeant Major Frederick William Hutchinson

Battery Sergeant Major Frederick William HutchinsonService number 352049, 71st  Heavy Battery, Royal Garrison Artillery. Mentioned in Despatches. He was killed in Battle of Cambrai on 30 November 1917, aged 37.  He is commemorated on the Cambrai War Memorial in Louverval, France. Born in Ireland in 1878 and married to Gertrude with one son Frederick. He worked as an electrician for the London and South Western Railway Company and lived at 29 Church Road, Bishopstoke.

F.W.Hutchinson photograph, April 1912.

Bishops Sutton, St Nicholas

  • Corporal Charles Henry Money
    Service number B/2165 3rd Battalion Rifle Brigade. Died on 7 November 1918 aged 33 years. Buried in Cross Roads Cemetery, Fontaine-Au-Bois, Nord, France, II. C. 23. Born in 1895 in Bishops Sutton to James Money (a yardman or stockman on farm) and Sarah Money of Sutton Manor Farm, Bishops Sutton.

Cheriton, St Michael and All Angels

  • Private Percy Holmes
    Service Number 22204, 1st Battalion Dorsetshire Regiment (formerly service number 23101, Hampshire Regiment). Died of wounds at home on 18 December 1916 aged 40 years and is buried in the churchyard. Born in Cheriton in 1876, son of Richard Holmes (a farmer) and Emily Holmes of Malt House Farm, Cheriton

New Alresford, St John the Baptist

  • Serjeant William Curtis DCM
    Service number 20623, 26th Field Coy, Royal Engineers. Died on 18 May 1918 aged 27 years. Buried in Cambrin Military Cemetery, Pas de Calais, France, N. 50. Born in New Alresford in 1891 to Walter Curtis (a hire carter) and Frances Curtis, of Pound Hill, Alresford, and husband of Josephine Kate Curtis, of 10, Clifton Road, Maida Vale, London.
  • Private William Harold Jackson
    Service number 30212, 2nd /4th Battalion Dorsetshire Regiment. Enlisted in Winchester and died on 5 November 1917 aged 19 years en route to Egypt. He is commemorated on Chatsby Memorial in Egypt. Born in 1898 to William James Jackson (schoolmaster at Stourpaine School, Dorset) and Annie Jackson of Broad Street, Alresford.


Sparsholt, St Stephen

  • Rifleman William Henry Daniels
    Service number B/784, 7th Service Battalion Rifle Brigade. Died 13 August 1916 aged 25 years. No grave but his name is on Thiepval memorial Pier and Face 16 B and 16 C. Born in Houghton in 1891 and resident of village as agricultural labourer. Son of Frederick Daniells (a carpenter) and Mary and brother of Miss Hilda Daniels, of Sparsholt, Winchester.


Winchester Cathedral, Holy Trinity, SS Peter, Paul and Swithun

  • Aircraftsman William H. Chute (Billy)Aircraftsman William H. Chute (Billy)

Service number 25437 Royal Flying Corp. Enlisted on 11 April 1915 as a rigger and was promoted to air mechanic 3 by 1918. Died of injuries sustained in war in 1924 aged 32. Born in Winchester in 1892, grandparents were William H. Chute (a fellmonger’s assistant) and Jane Chute of 12 Lower Brook Street, Winchester.

  • Sergeant Charles H. Russell Jnr.Sergeant Charles H. Russell Jnr.

Service number 200016, 1st/4th Battalion Hampshire Regiment. Imprisoned after surrender of British Forces following siege of Kut-al-Amara in April 1916. Died a few days after the Armistice of influenza on 17 November 1918 aged 31 years. Buried in Haidar Pasha Cemetery, Turkey Reference I. H. 12. Born in Winchester in 1887 and son of Charles Russell (a carpenter rand cathedral ringer) and Emma Russell, of 76, Lower Brook Street, Winchester.


Wonston, Holy Trinity

  • Private Edwin George Hillary
    Service Number 10470, 2nd Battalion Hampshire Regiment. Enlisted in Winchester and died 13 August 1915 aged 25. Born in Micheldever in 1892 and resided and worked in Sutton Scotney as a gardener.  Son of Edwin Charles Hillary (a jobbing carpenter) and Alice Mary Hillary, of Hunton Mill, Sutton Scotney. Commemorated at Helles Memorial, Turkey Panel 125-134 or 223-226 228-229 & 328.


  • Private Victor Frederick Hillary
    Service Number 10477, 2nd Battalion Hampshire Regiment. Enlisted in Winchester and died 13 August 1915, aged 18 (age occasionally shown as 19) Born in 1898 in Hunton, Micheldever and resided in Sutton Scotney. Son of Edwin Charles Hillary (a jobbing carpenter) and Alice Mary Hillary, of Hunton Mill, Sutton Scotney. Commemorated at Helles Memorial, Turkey Panel 125-134 or 223-226 228-229 & 328.
  • William H. Brooks
  • Herbert H. Jerram

Born in 1898 to Albert W Jerram (a blacksmith) and Mary K Jerram, living at the Blacksmith’s shop, Wonston.

Brothers Edwin and Victor Hillary both died when H.M.T. “Royal Edward” was torpedoed after leaving Alexandria for the Gallipoli Peninsula with reinforcements for the Dardanelles.


Winchester District QDM, Picnic and Walk – Saturday 11th August 11:00am – 4.30pm

WIN QDM 20180811

Dear All,

Further to my last as below, here – at last! – is the paperwork for next Saturday’s meeting in New Alresford.

Planning of the walk has not been straightforward, as it looks to me as though there has been some encroachment upon (and rendering impassable of) some of the public rights of way. Another consequence of …. no, don’t get me started.

Anyway, I’ll get the walking notes out anon, plus see to all the other things I should have done since May.

Best wishes meanwhile

District Secretary

Dear All,

The next quarterly meeting of the Winchester District will, as in previous years, comprise a gentle stroll round the lanes of Hampshire – specifically, from New Alresford, by a somewhat circuitous route, to Old Alresford, and then, back by a more direct route to New Alresford, where you can take afternoon tea/go for a pint/whatever, before returning home.

This will take place on the second Saturday in August, i.e. 11th August, and will follow the usual format of ringing, BYO picnic lunch and then the meeting, then the walk to Old Alresford for more ringing. By decision of the AGM this will be our last ever August meeting, so we/you need to make the most of it.

I am away from the office for a few days, hence this advance warning. I’ll send out the usual material on my return.

best wishes

District Secretary



Winchester District QDM Walk and Picnic – Sat 11th August 2018

Dear All,
The next quarterly meeting of the Winchester District will, as in previous years, comprise a gentle stroll round the lanes of Hampshire – specifically, from New Alresford, by a somewhat circuitous route, to Old Alresford, and then, back by a more direct route to New Alresford, where you can take afternoon tea/go for a pint/whatever, before returning home.
This will take place on the second Saturday in August, i.e. 11th August, and will follow the usual format of ringing, BYO picnic lunch and then the meeting, then the walk to Old Alresford for more ringing. By decision of the AGM this will be our last ever August meeting, so we/you need to make the most of it.
I am away from the office for a few days, hence this advance warning. I’ll send out the usual material on my return.
best wishes
District Secretary

St. John’s, New Alresford ringers doing their bit to REMEMBER.

At St. John’s, New Alresford, the ringers have an ongoing project to ring a quarter peal in the months one hundred years on from the death of any Alresford man named on the war memorial in the church. So far we have rung 23 quarter peals for forty of those named.

This project started with the publication of a book, ‘Not Just A Name’, researched and written by Glenn Gilbertson. This book is a fantastic resource document of the personal, family and service records of all those who served in the armed services and were killed in the 20th century who lived or had links with the Alresford SO24 postal area. There are details in the book of battles, photos of men and places, locations of cemeteries where the men were buried or for those with no known grave, the specific memorial where the name is recorded.

Glenn Gilbertson, a personal friend, printed out the list of names and dates of deaths for all those men who died in WWI whose names appear on the war memorial in St. John’s Church. Thus, when planning quarter peals, all I need do is reference the names each month and write out a piece for our parish magazine, taking the details of each man from the book. Next is to assemble a band of 8 ringers for a quarter peal. Luckily there are two evening services each month at St. John’s. The choral evensong is the most appropriate service and the quarter peal is publicised in the notice sheet for that week with brief details of the men to be commemorated. A quarter scored, the details are then sent for publication in the Ringing World. Alresford residents are very appreciative of the bells. We quite often receive kind comments for our efforts.

Currently, we have two young recruits who have just started to ring at St. John’s and have been signed up for the ‘Ringing Remembers’ project. By a strange coincidence, on a recent tower tidy-up morning, we came across a piece of board that was unearthed in 2013 in the clock case. Written in pencil, on a rough piece of board was the following:
“C.B. Eddoll and W.H. Jackson organised a peal of eight young ringers in order to fill up the gaps left by those who joined the colours in the great war against Germany in 1914.
First peal rung by the young ringers was on 8 February 1916. The bells, rung by the young ringers are marked on the bells on the board on the wall near the treble bell”

Unfortunately, we were not able to locate the names. Guild reports for the relevant years throw no light on them either. There was only one ringer from Alresford who we know to have been killed and that was William James Curtis, DCM. He died on 18 April 1918. He and his father, Walter were both guild members in 1909.
Sgt. Curtis’ name is on the memorial in Winchester Cathedral’s ringing chamber as well as in St. John’s Church. He was buried in Cambrin Military Cemetery, Pas de Calais.

We hope that our two new ringers will be worthy successors: St. John’s, New Alresford ringers doing their bit to REMEMBER.

Elizabeth Johnson, tower secretary
St. John the Baptist, New Alresford

Quarter Peal in memory of 3 Alresford men who died in WW1 during July 1917

Winchester & Portsmouth Diocesan Guild
New Alresford, Hampshire
St John the Baptist
Sunday, 9 July 2017 in 47 min (15–3–18 in E)
1260 Grandsire Triples
Susan Smith
Maureen Hanney
Elizabeth Johnson
Teresa Brown
Andrew Johnson (C)
Ian Redway
John Dodd
Robert Hatch
Rung for evensong in memory of three Alresford men who died during WWI in July 1917: Lance Corporal Charles Eacher who died on July 8th 1917; Company Quarter Master Sergeant Alfred Woodward who died of heatstroke at Baghdad on July 15th 1917; Lance Corporal Charles Edward Gordon Grainger who died on July 31st 1917 at Passchendaele.

Quarter Peal Rung in memory of Lieutenant Philip Richard John Grinham killed in France on May 3rd 1917

Winchester & Portsmouth Diocesan Guild
New Alresford, Hampshire
St John the Baptist
Sunday, 14 May 2017 in 46 minutes (15–3–18 in E)
1260 Plain Bob Triples

1 Wendy M Ling
2 Maureen J Hanney
3 Caroline Fairley
4 Ian M Redway
5 Elizabeth Johnson
6 Rodney C Skinner
7 Anthony P Smith (C)
8 Anthony J P Ayres

Rung for Evensong in memory of Lieutenant Philip Richard John Grinham killed in France on May 3rd 1917. Also remembering Kay Alonzo née Tremeer who died in Australia recently, one-time bellringer at St John’s.

New Alresford practice moved to Old Alresford 31st March

Dear All,
The subject line tells you all you need to know: New Alresford St john the Baptist has been commandeered for a rehearsal of The Messiah a week tonight so the New Alresford band is decamping to Old Alresford SMtV for their practice. If you were thinking of joining the New Alresford practice, Old Alresford’s where you need to go.
Best wishes
District Secretary

FOUND – Black Folding Umbrella at the AGM on July 2nd – RESOLVED

A black folding umbrella was found in St. John’s New Alresford Church Hall on July 2nd (Guild AGM Day). To claim it,please come to our Friday Practice Night Or:

*** Resolved – the owner has seen the post! Time taken 1 hour. ***

Other Items currently Lost and Found


Condensed Report of Winchester and Portsmouth Guild AGM July 2nd 2016

This year the W&P AGM was hosted by the Winchester District, and held at New Alresford.

On a gloriously sunny morning the Inter-District Striking Competition organised by Greg Jordan was held, where judges Paul and Kate Flavell awarded first place to the team from the Portsmouth District.





Peal Speed




Grandsire Triples






Cambridge Surprise Major





Christchurch & Southampton

Grandsire Triples






Grandsire Triples




This was followed by an excellent Ploughman’s lunch, before the Guild service in St John’s Church and then the business meeting.

61 members attended the meeting, held at the John Pearson Hall, and were welcomed by Viv Nobbs the Master.

A minutes silence was observed to mark the loss by death of Guild members;

Len Barham (All Saints, Alton), Andrew Barnsdale (unattached), Roy Grayson (Purbrook), Roy Howard (Freshwater), Simon Lipscombe-Smith (Ecchinswell), Marjorie Mannering (Buriton), Tom Metcalfe (Blackmoor), Colin Nicholson (first Tower Captain at St Peter Port), Jeanette Palmer (Netley), Martin Routh (former Tower Captain at Amport), Ramon A Stone (LM) (West Meon), Bernard Tilyard (Whitwell), Keith Williamson (formerly of Liss), and David Yates (Arreton).

Barry Fry said a prayer.

This year four members, John Croft, Alan Hoar, Maureen Routh and Ronald Tipper, were presented with Life Membership Certificates by the Master, after each had completed 50 years of membership. The Master then proposed two members to Life Membership in recognition of their exceptional services to the Guild, adding her personal thanks to both Mike Bubb and Tony Smith for their support during her three years as Guild Master. The motion was overwhelmingly carried and there was much applause as both Mike and Tony were presented with their certificates.

Grants from the Bell Restoration Fund were approved to Baughurst, £200, Breamore, £400 and Sherborne St John, £300.

There followed reports about the Central Council meeting which had been held in the W&P Guild area at Southsea in May, and from the chair of the organising committee, Christine Hill, who reported that it had been a great organisational success with many compliments from those attending. She expressed her thanks to all those who had contributed to the success which reflected well on the Guild.

The updated Guild Action Plan was circulated and can be found on our website here at;

Elections of new officers for a triennial period followed and the principal roles were taken by Mike Winterbourne (Master), Pete Jordan (Vice Master), and Ros Brandwood (Treasurer). Unfortunately no-one was willing to be elected as General Secretary at the meeting, so the retiring Secretary, Mo Routh, agreed to continue as Acting Secretary until the next Executive Meeting, by which time it is hoped a new volunteer will have been found.

Future Dates of note;

24 August 2016

Young Ringers’ Day

with the Salisbury Diocesan Guild

24 September 2016

District Officers’ Forum

St. Barnabas’ Church Hall, Southampton

12 November 2016

Executive Committee Meeting

St. Barnabas’ Church Hall, Southampton

26 November 2016

Informal Social Event

To be arranged

11-12 March 2017

ART Annual Conference

Old Basing Hall, Basingstoke

AOB consisted of;                                                                                                                                            i, Robin Milford speaking of his plans for another W&P 200 Club similar to that run by Mark Esbester but to raise money for training and retention rather than bell restoration. Robin would be pleased to hear from anyone interested in joining or having questions.                                                                                            ii, A summary of quarter peals rung in Guild towers between 1960 and 2014 had been prepared by Alan Buswell and would be passed to the Hon. Librarian and Archivist.                                                               iii, Ian McCallion and Michael Church asked for clarification about the 200 Club with respect to it’s intentions and relationship with the Guild. The exec committee are to discuss and present a proposal to the Guild.

Mike Winterbourne thanked all the retiring officers for their hard work and closed the meeting at 4:17pm

Next year’s AGM will be on 17th June 2017 in the Christchurch and Southampton District.

More tea and lovely cake were offered after the meeting to sustain us for our journeys home and the sun was still shining.

Thankyou to Bruce Purvis, Viv Nobbs and Deb Baker for the photos.

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First A.R.T. training in the Guild goes well.

ART Training Day Module 1.

As part of their amazing commitment to training in the Guild and ringing in general Andy and Sallie Ingram held Winchester and Portsmouth Guild’s first Association of Ringing Teacher’s (ART) Module1 – Teaching bell Handling day course on Saturday 25th June.

The day started at 09:00 in The Kings Head at Hursley with the introduction and coffee followed by a practical session across the road at All Saints Church and then back to the pub’s skittle alley for more theory. We continued this way with us cleverly dodging all the thunderous downpours.

9 students attended from 6 different towers of Ecchinswell, Hursley, New Alresford, Romsey, Rotherwick and Winchester.                                                                                                             Different ages and abilities from 3 districts were all there to learn about becoming a teacher on the ART Scheme, how ART approaches teaching others and then hopefully move on to teach their learners about bell handling and bell control to complete Module 1.

The course showed us how to approach learners, hand them a rope for the first time, start backstrokes then handstrokes with bells both up and down and then safely join hand and backstrokes together whilst imbuing them with confidence.


After a lovely pre ordered lunch , more theory followed. The practical lesson of teaching ringing up and down made us look at our own practices with surprising little tweeks here and there. Solving Handling Problems theory followed by the practical, again examined our own practices with most people needing very little correction and having left egos at the door this proved very well humoured.

Starting on an accredited teaching journey may seem at odds even superfluous to a few of the ‘old guard’ who have taught for many years but having a planned path of progress also has it’s place. Keeping a standard, planned learning path allows for a gradual reduction in ‘bad habits’ being taught and good practice being maintained .

ART say ‘National ringing institutions recognised that the ageing population of Tower Captains meant that the old ways of teaching had to change. As often happens at such times, along came individuals who had the knowledge, skills and time to be able to develop a new way. It has grown because it is the right thing being done at the right time’.

Without practice, feedback and reinforcement, basic human nature kicks in and people revert back to their old ways of doing things. That’s what we as teachers need to do to – practise until it becomes second-nature and practise it right. That’s what the ART Training Scheme does for you – it has processes and support to help you change your behaviours’.

A huge thankyou to Andy and Sallie for their relaxed and fun way of teaching and to All Saints Church, Hursley for the use of their bells.

I can’t wait to get back to my new ringers and use them as guinea pigs knowing I have a mentor to fall back on….. priceless..                                                                                                Deb Baker.